Y’all know that Your Humble Blogger is not a very good driver, so perhaps you can help me out, here. There’s an intersection in Williamsburg called College Corner, or more often Confusion Corner, which is a sort of Y, with no traffic light. That actually doesn’t describe it very well, so I’ll describe it in tedious detail, and perhaps y’all can look at a map which might help, but might actually be misleading.
Technically, the corner is the intersection of Jamestown Road, North Boundary Street and South Boundary Street. However, most of the traffic coming in to the intersection from the south is actually coming from Francis Street, which dead ends into South Boundary about a dozen car lengths from Confusion Corner. Because of a well-placed stretch of one-way, all of the traffic coming in from the north is coming from Richmond Road, which dead ends into North Boundary about two car lengths from Confusion Corner. So I’ll describe it as the intersection between Jamestown, Richmond, and Francis; that’s the way I think about it. If you are following on the map, please ignore Duke of Gloucester Street, which is pedestrian-only, and affects the corner only by making sure that there are lots of pedestrians aiming to use the crosswalks on each of the roads.
Most of the car traffic is coming in from the west along Jamestown and heading to Richmond (north or northwest). That traffic has the right of way: no yield sign, no stop sign. A car heading to Francis (east or south) from Jamestown takes the cutout and yields. Traffic heading in from Richmond has a yield; a car turning right is really yielding only to pedestrians, as the cars with the right of way are left-turning on their outside. A car heading from Richmond to Francis is yielding to cars from Jamestown (turning left, but with the right of way) as well as pedestrians and any car already in the intersection turning from Francis to Jamestown. Traffic heading in from Francis has a stop sign. Cars heading to Richmond are stopping for cars from Jamestown (which have the right of way) and pedestrians; cars heading to Jamestown are stopping for cars from Jamestown (which have the right of way), cars from Richmond (which have a yield), and pedestrians.
Got it?
Now, about ten times a week, I am in a car heading from Francis to Jamestown (from east to west, that is). This is my experience: After turning from Francis into Confusion Corner, I get in the left (turn only) lane, and keep an eye out for cars coming in from Jamestown. If there are no cars coming, I check for cars coming in from Richmond. If there are no cars there, fine, I go. If there’s a car heading in to the intersection, fine, I wait. Usually, though, there is a car stopped and waiting. Well, and that’s fine, too, that car has the right of way, and I wait until he has gone, and then (if there is still a gap in traffic on Jamestown) I slip in behind him.
Most days, there is another car behind that car. Do I have the right of way over that other car, even though it has a yield and I have a stop?
To make it more confusing: Richmond-to-Jamestown is a pretty sharp angle, say 60 degrees. There’s a wall and a lot of trees along the inside, so there’s no way to tell from about four car lengths outside the intersection whether you are going to be able to slip through or whether you will have to wait. Further, the boundary in question is the boundary between the College of William and Mary and Colonial Williamsburg; I would guess that a fifth or more of the cars going through the corner are doing it for the first time. Some of them are lost, some of them are just looking for somewhere to park, and some of them are extremely elderly (for drivers). A higher percentage of all of those than in most intersections of my experience, even of most intersections in Williamsburg. I can’t assume that anybody coming in to the intersection from any direction knows which roads have which signs. If an intersection is four-way stop, there’s a sign for that; there’s no sign for yield-and-the-people-facing-you-have-a-stop or the-people-on-your-left-have-a-yield-and-the-people-on-your-right-have-a-stop-but-you-got-nuthin’.
So. Generally, I just do it the old-fashioned way where I guess what the fellow coming from Richmond will do, and try to stay out of his way. Or try to make it clear what I will do, so he can stay out of my way. Or, ideally, both. And, I should say, I’ve never had an collision or a near-collision there, nor even seen a near-collision, I think. So I’m not too worried. But I’d like to know: who has the right of way?
chazak, chazak, v’nitchazek,
-Vardibidian.
“Right-of-Way
When two vehicles approach an intersection not controlled by traffic lights or signs or when two vehicles approach an intersection controlled by four stop signs, neither vehicle has the right-of-way. Virginia law states that when two or more vehicles approach an intersection from different directions at the same time, the driver on the LEFT must yield to the driver on the right.
If the traffic lights at an intersection are not functioning, all vehicles approaching the intersection must stop. The driver on the left must yield to the driver on the right.
The law does not give the right-of-way to anyone. It only states which driver must yield to another.
Yield also means to stop if you cannot merge safely into the flow of traffic.”
“Stop: The octagon (eight-sided) shape always means stop. You must come to a complete stop at the sign, stop line, pedestrian crosswalk or curb. Then, yield the right-of-way to any vehicle or pedestrian approaching from either direction.
Yield: Slow down to a speed reasonable for the conditions and yield the right-of-way. Stop if necessary.”
In other words, yield=stop for right-of-way purposes.
i disagree. there’s no way you’ll find a driver in america who thinks that their yield sign indicates giving right-of-way to someone at a stop sign.
I think what Michael is saying is that if you must stop at a yield sign, then the yield sign should be treated as a stop sign. Which is plausible, but I’m not sure it’s accurate.
I should have added that often the person with the yield sign does yield to the person with the stop sign, blinking headlights to indicate go-on-ahead. That seemed like a bit of adhockery, rather than a rule.
One aspect that I’m unsure of is what constitutes approaching an intersection. In a four-way-stop, it’s clear that if you stop behind a car stopped at the stop sign (that’s clear, isn’t it?), then you have approached the intersection behind anybody who is already stopped at the stop sign. What’s less clear is when you stop behind somebody who has stopped at a yield sign, as they cannot merge immediately. When that car rolls through the intersection, and you roll toward it, are you approaching the intersection, and thus anyone at a stop sign should yield to you, or are you effectively already stopped at the intersection, and thus you should yield to the car that arrived first?
Or what?
Thanks,
-V.
well i’m still going to say that for this purpose, the yield-sign traffic is part of the general flow of traffic that the stop-sign traffic has to yield to, no matter if the yield traffic had to come to a stop.
the cars behind at a yield sign are stopped because of traffic and not because of their individual responsibility to yield. (in the same way that car 2 at a stop sign has to stop for the sign when it gets there.) if there’s room for it, the 2nd car in line goes right into the intersection behind car 1. stop means stop but yield gives the driver some room for interpretation.
I never thought the rules were all that hard to understand. I just thought nobody bothered to follow the rules because the rules are dumb/inconvenient/an evil plot from outer space.
My first answer was basically an expanded RTFM. The stuff I put in italics is from the Virginia state driver’s manual. It’s controlling in Virginia only. (Those Virginia rules basically match the New York State rules circa 1986, but I have no idea what other states might require. I currently live in a state (er, commonwealth) which has no rules.)
What happens if you are a North-going Zax already at a stop sign at an intersection, and a West-going Zax is approaching the intersection and has his own stop sign? Do you need to yield to him until he comes to a stop (since he’s “approaching the intersection”), and then you can go? Even after he’s stopped, do you need to continue yielding to West-going Zax #2 who is behind him and is still approaching the intersection?
The answer is obviously no. You are entitled to assume that the West-going Zax will obey the rules of the road as well, which tell him to yield the right of way at the intersection. You got there first, you get to go first. I assume we’re all clear on that being the case when you and he both have stop signs.
When West-going Zaxes do not have any sign, and you as a North-going Zax do have a stop sign, you have to wait for a break in traffic, because the West-going Zaxes are under no obligation to yield the right-of-way to you. I assume that’s also clear.
The key to understanding the yield sign in Virginia is understanding that the stop sign and the yield sign both have TWO functions, one if which is the same for both signs and one of which is different. The function that differs is on change-of-speed: the stop sign requires a stop regardless of traffic, and the yield sign is more context-driven on whether it requires a stop or a reduction in speed. The function that is the same is that both require the driver to yield the right-of-way.
So if the West-going Zax has a yield sign, and you as a North-going Zax have a stop sign, and you are already at the intersection, you get to go first. The West-going Zax is under an obligation to yield to traffic in the intersection, and you’re entitled to assume that he’ll follow the rules of the road. Whether he has to stop or just slow down is irrelevant. You are under no obligation to optimize his driving experience, nor does the rule he’s supposed to follow say that he has to yield the right-of-way only if he stops.
In practice, you will be safer if you assume that the other drivers are unpredictable and if you try to drive as predictably as possible. In practice, most drivers correctly assume that other drivers will not follow the rules of the road (whether out of ignorance or fear or rudeness), and often figure that the same is being assumed of them. The civilized thing to do is to follow the rules of the road and signal to other drivers that you’re doing so, which is what is happening when the West-going Zax with the yield sign comes to a stop and blinks his lights at you to go.
you’re entitled to assume that he’ll follow the rules of the road
last year i did that at a traffic light and ended up turned 90 degrees with the side of the car caved in. my fault for running a green…
i have to say that regardless of the situation if i came to an intersection, usually a traffic circle, and i had a yield sign, i wouldn’t stop to let someone go from a stop sign. if they’re not going already i’m not waiting for them, especially at intersections where everybody else is going flat out. they need to do their stop and get going.
this addresses the practical issue. around here, cars are usually in groups as they approach yield signs. in the middle of the group it’s very hard to stop.